Native Exiles
Native Exiles, a podcast from Alderwood Community Church, where we talk about following Jesus in the tension of being in the world but not of it. We want to help you think through how to walk with Jesus in a world that is seemingly walking the opposite direction. We want to equip you to engage the world without disengaging from Jesus. For more questions and inquiries, reach us at hello@alderwood.cc or visit us on our website at nativeexiles.com.
Native Exiles
Understanding the Bible’s View of Women in Church Leadership
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This episode of Native Exiles offers a deep dive into several of the key biblical passages that shape the conversation around women in church leadership. Rather than focusing primarily on modern debates, the discussion returns to the text itself, examining passages such as 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Corinthians 14. You can view the Alderwood position paper at alderwood.cc/essentials.
Attention is given to the historical context, language, and theological arguments surrounding these passages, asking what they may have meant within the life of the early church. From that foundation, the episode considers the implications for modern congregations: how these texts have been interpreted across Christian traditions and what they might mean for the structure and leadership of churches today. The goal is a careful, Scripture-centered exploration of leadership, authority, and the role of women in the church.
Native Exiles is a podcast from Alderwood Community Church, where we talk about following Jesus in the tension of being in the world but not of it. For more questions and inquiries, reach us at hello@alderwood.cc or visit us on our website at alderwood.cc/ne/
Welcome to Native Exiles, Altar Root Community Churches podcast where we talk about following Jesus and the tension of being in the world, but not of it. And we are wrapping up a series we've been in lately, the last couple months, where we've been dealing with some topics that are of great importance personally and for our church congregations. We've gone through human sexuality, we've gone through the value of human life, and we're gonna finish up this series today by talking about the role of women in church leadership positions. And this topic is so complex, it's so fascinating, it could obviously take, you know, many, many podcast episodes, but we're gonna do the best we can in just one hour to unpack what we think the Bible's teaching about this issue and how we can learn and implement all of it together. Let's dive in. Well, Steve, here we are. Uh we're talking through our third issue in the series, our last one. Uh if we're being honest, probably the issue that we're most nervous heading into, probably the most controversial within the church. We are talking today about uh women's roles in church leadership and what the Bible has to say about that. And we're gonna unpack that paper for folks uh who hopefully have read it. If you haven't read it yet, there's a link in the show notes. Uh, it probably would help you in this conversation to read through that now. But um, we're having this conversation because it matters to a bunch of real people, men and women, but women in particular. And uh every church has to make a decision about how to structure their leadership and what rules are open to women and what are not. And uh I think people are owed clarity. And so we're gonna explain what we do for our church, what our position is. Uh it's our best attempt at being faithful to the scriptures and uh and trying to represent what God has said. Uh, but we're also saying that with humility. And I think that's an important place for us to start of where we kind of place this conversation and the broader conversation of what we believe as Christians. Um, this isn't the most important thing in the world. It's important, but it's not the most important thing in the world. And we also believe this is something that uh genuine Christians who love the scriptures and love Jesus and love women and uh will disagree on. And and that we actually think that's okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, obviously part of humility is we don't believe our word is the last word, and we recognize there's a wide variety of opinions about this. But I know probably both of us have maybe prayed a little bit more about this one, felt the weight of this one a little bit more because we love our people and we want to help each Christian to think clearly about this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. One thing I want to acknowledge just up front is kind of the limits of what we can do today. Uh, you know, we have an hour or so to get into this. We're gonna try to explain. You mean we can't cover it all in one hour, why? Probably every passage we bring up could be its own podcast, just on its own. I mean, volume after volume has been written on every angle of this whole thing. So we can't cover everything. We can't explain everything, we can't defend against every possible argument. The other thing I want to acknowledge is what we can't do, we can't represent the entire scope of people's experiences with this topic in particular. Everybody's gonna come to this conversation with their own lens, with their own history. There's gonna be women listening to this who uh have not thought a lot about this and have been very happy to just believe whatever their church has believed about uh women in church in leadership. There's gonna be women who this is like the most passionate issue in their lives. There's gonna be people who have been taught that this issue is the litmus test for whether your church is actually faithful to the scriptures or not, and it's like the most important thing. Um, there's gonna be people who have been really personally hurt over this topic and how they've been treated personally by leaders in the church. And and so I would love to pastorally be able to work with everybody who's listening to this one-on-one and hear your story and all of that. And we can't do that today, obviously. Um, but we do just upfront what everybody to know. Uh, we actually are happy for this to be the beginning of a conversation. You know, if if you have questions about this, if you're hurt by this, if you, you know, think we've totally missed it, please reach out to us, let us talk. Uh, we can go so far beyond what we can do in a podcast. But we are gonna do today what we can do in a podcast. We're gonna try to help explain our position, where it comes from, why we believe this is what the Bible is teaching. And uh yeah, without further ado, I think let's take a quick break and we'll jump back into uh reading what our position is on women in leadership. All right, Steve, let's dive into this. Would you do us the honor of reading just the short version of our position from the top of that paper?
SPEAKER_01Our paper says, Alderwood teaches that men and women are each invaluable partners in life and ministry, and that women should be equipped and empowered to serve in every area of church ministry, with one exception, which is the role of elder. Our position is that God has established the role of elder within the church to serve as the spiritual fathers of the church family, and that this one role is reserved for biblically qualified men. When considering what roles, functions, and activities are appropriate for women, the question to ask is not what may a woman do, but rather what may a non-elder do. If something is available to non-elder men, then it should be available to women as well.
SPEAKER_00Great. And will you go ahead and just read our second paragraph, which is in all these papers? Yeah. Just to remind us where we come from on topics like this.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So important that we include this each time. We have said in each of our positions, position papers, that at Alderwood we do not expect everyone within our church family to agree completely on this issue. Our most strongly held beliefs and the beliefs that we require all members to hold can be found in our essential doctrine statement. Our position on women in church leadership, while important, is secondary to that document. And we ask that our church family submit to it without causing division, while being free to personally hold differing convictions about what the script scriptures teach on this issue. For those in teaching and leadership roles, we require that they teach Alderwood's position in good faith in whatever way they are re representing Alderwood.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I just I'm I ask you to do that because I think on this topic as much as any, it's so important that we remember that reality that this isn't a main thing. This is a secondary issue. We actually hope that we will have people at Alderwood who disagree in certain ways on this, who even might enjoy passionately debating it with each other, but who at the end of the day can link arms, can worship together side by side, can lead together, can submit to the reality of how our church is structured and how we're leading on this topic, but can recognize that uh we're family on this. We're gonna love each other, we're gonna argue like brothers and sisters, we're not gonna let it divide us. So that's our hope, that's our posture. Um, and yeah, I just want to kind of explain a little bit of what you just read there. Uh, we are essentially saying that um, in almost every role in the church, in almost every capacity, our belief and our desire is to see men and women serving side by side in equal ways. So um spiritual gifts, we believe, are distributed equally to men and women. There are no gendered spiritual gifts. Uh, so there are men and women who are gifted as teachers, who are gifted as leaders, administrators, gifts of hospitality, encouragement. I mean, on and on, you name it. And however men and women are gifted, um, our desire is to see those gifts used for God's glory, for the good of the people of our church, for the kingdom of God. Like that's just kind of our baseline. This is what we want to see. Um, what you read there was that there is one exception to that when it comes to roles in the church, that our position is that the role of elder in the church is reserved for biblically qualified men. And just to kind of explain that sentence, it's not just that any man can be an elder. There's a very specific list of qualifications. Um, only men who can meet those qualifications are uh allowed to be considered for that role. Um, and actually, it's not even that men who are qualified get to be elder. You know, we have thousands of people at our church. The vast majority of them are never going to be an elder at our church, men included. So it isn't uh it isn't saying that, you know, um every man should aspire to the office of elder. The Bible doesn't teach that. But we do select biblically qualified men to fill that role because we believe that that role is serving a function, that in the church family, the elders are the spiritual fathers, and that comes with a level of authority and leadership and a responsibility to guard and guide the church that is unique to that role. And uh and we're gonna get into why we think the the Bible teaches that, but that's just an explanation of our position. Um Steve, you've been pointing out to me a number of times that uh we're we're not unique in any way in what we're putting forth here as this role, but it's maybe not like what most people are used to hearing on when it comes to church's positions on men and women of the church. Would you say that's fair?
SPEAKER_01I would, you know, I think for people, so many people, this is just a binary issue. You know, you either believe in women in leadership or you're against it. Or you believe women can teach, or you don't believe women. I mean, we're taking a position that actually sidesteps a lot of those issues that people tend to rally around. And we're uniquely saying that the issue isn't primarily a woman per se, it's an elder per se. So I do think it's a unique. I mean, like you, I've grown up in the church, I've heard a lot of these discussions and arguments over the years. And while you're right, this isn't completely unique, it's not the most common view. We're taking a somewhat uncommon view.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so let's try to give people a little bit of the lay of the land. You know, when the conversation comes up in the church about women in uh leadership roles, uh there's kind of two sides to this debate that are most commonly known. That would be complementarians and egalitarians. And if you haven't heard that term before, uh kind of the simplest way to define it is that uh complementarians believe that uh men and women are created equal in value and dignity and worth, but with significant distinctions between them, that those differences complement one another, which is where the term complementarian comes from, and that God calls men and women to different roles in the family and the church based off of those differences and how he made them. And so that there are some roles that are prohibited to women, and and actually vice versa, you know, that uh um in the family in particular is the easy way to understand that, you know, if you're a man, God has will never call you to be a godly mother. It's not not a thing. Uh and uh there's kind of a focus on the differences and the complementarity of men and women. The phrase egalitarian, uh, you know, that comes from that root uh concept of being equal, and egalitarians believe that uh while they agree with complementarians that men and women are different, obviously, um those differences do not justify any uh prohibitions to roles in the church in particular. Egalitarians obviously believe that mothers and fathers operate differently in the family, but in the church, what they would say is that the only way for men and women to be truly equal in value, dignity, and worth is for men and women to be uh allowed to fill any role in the church, including elder, including lead pastor. Uh and those are kind of the two camps that are pitted against each other most often in this debate. And what's interesting to me at least is when you kind of dig into that reality um what I think is true is that these two sides of this conversation share far more in common than they actually have in disagreement.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I have to just point out I appreciate that you're approaching it that way. Because so many people don't. You know, I used the word binary earlier, and so often I've heard so-called complementarians say, oh, those egalitarians just think we're all 100% the same. There's it's ridiculous the way they flatten the human race. And then the opposite side, you know, saying complimentarians just want to hold women. I mean, we're trying to get out of some of the ugly stereotypes, the flattening the other side. So I appreciate the way you put some nuance into that.
SPEAKER_00I mean, there's a little bit of irony there, right? Like good complementarians believe in the equality of men and women, which is where the egalitarian phrase comes from. Good egalitarians believe in the differences of men and women and the way that those differences complement one another. So there's a lot of agreement in these uh different uh perspectives, but let's not paper over all the disagreement. There is a there's a significant disagreement in how to interpret what God's ideal is for the function of men and women in the church. And it just really comes down to does God's in is God's intent for church leadership that there are certain roles that are only available to men, or not? Is is the fact that that has been true in the church and true throughout history, just a result of the fall in the effects of sin? And everyone should acknowledge that sin has brought in all kinds of misogyny and sexism and the oppression of women uh throughout history and today. And so uh everyone should acknowledge that that's a reality that needs to be uh reformed, that needs to be undone and well, couldn't you also say those are just cultural accidents?
SPEAKER_01You know, that's another argument we'll often hear. That's just cultures have chosen to operate that way over the centuries and millennia, but it's purely cultural.
SPEAKER_00Right. And everybody should agree to that too, that there's cultural realities to this. Like, so everybody should be on the same page there. The real distinction just comes down to okay, but if you take away culture and you take away sin and you just ask, what was God's design? What did he want? Complimentarians are gonna say some version of actually God's design from the beginning was for the differences between men and women to be played out differently in leadership roles and responsibility roles in the family and the church. And egalitarians in general are gonna say, no, apart from sin, apart from culture, God's original good intent was for men and women to be equally invited into every role of leadership and responsibility. And so that's where we're that that difference comes. And so just to kind of place us in that framework, uh, our position is a flavor of a complementarian position because we are saying that the role of elder is reserved for biblically qualified men. What's a little bit funny about our position, and you know, what we get to experience as we do QA's and invite people into this and have all kinds of conversations, is our position is such that there will be both egalitarians and complimentarians who think we've lost our minds and are totally wrong on this.
SPEAKER_01I was over here chuckling because I thought you were going to point out that many people like to use adjectives when they talk about complimentaries. So there's gentle complimentarians, there's soft complimentaries. I don't know what our adjective is why, but I hope it's humble.
SPEAKER_00I'll take that. Yeah. Let's go with it. So so that's where we are. And uh and once again, Steve, let's take a let's take a breath here. And when we come back, uh, let's just start getting into the Bible and talking about why we think this is, as far as we can tell, the most faithful representation of what the Bible's teaching us about the roles of men and women in church leadership. Sounds good.
SPEAKER_01What, how about we dive into the Old Testament? When I was a kid, we used to listen to the soundtrack for the sound of music, and one of the songs said, let's start at the very beginning. It's a very good place to start.
SPEAKER_00It's a very good place to start, I agree.
SPEAKER_01So, I mean, if we were to just start in the very first chapter of the Bible, Genesis chapter one, I think, as you pointed out earlier, one thing both egalitarians and complementarians agree on is that men and women are created equal. They have equal value. And that comes out so clearly in Genesis chapter one. God creates male and female in the image of God. He blesses both man and woman, he gives them both the cultural mandate, fill the earth and subdue it. Everything there is side by side and equal. And that's so important as a starting point, don't you think?
SPEAKER_00It's huge because there's this really weird thing that happens in our modern conversations about what the Bible has to say about men and women, which is that we are at times laser-focused on what potential prohibitions the Bible is giving about women uh fulfilling roles in the family or in the church. When if you actually look at the whole of what the Bible has to say about women in particular, the Bible is remarkably progressive, remarkably uh it advocates for women in ways that would have been so foreign to the cultures around uh the biblical authors when this was being written. And so, like this is a great example where this text in Genesis 1, that is many, many thousands of years old, when the e the equality of men and women was not believed by hardly anyone, any culture. You have this remarkable beginning in Genesis 1 where the Bible just definitively says men and women are equal. They're equal in the image of God, they're equal in their value and their worth. And so I might come back to that multiple times because even a lot of the passages that we're gonna get to later that are talking about certain prohibitions, they're actually remarkable for what they're saying women should be doing, should be allowed to do in the church. And so it's just it's good to keep that balance. Uh, Genesis one starts with the radical equality of men and women. Uh, and then the the creation stories in Genesis are just these really remarkable things where you get not one, but two creation stories. You have the Genesis one creation story, and you turn the page to Genesis two, and it feels totally different. It's it's a it's a zoomed-in picture of creation, in particular the creation of Adam and Eve, and it's contributing some different uh some different things to the conversation. And it's Genesis two, where you start to get a little bit of the differences between men and women played out uh in that creation story. And the reason why it's so important to start here in the conversation is because of what I mentioned earlier, which is that really when it comes down to it, like the core difference between complementarians and egalitarians is what God's ideal is before sin, apart from sin, apart from culture. And Genesis 1 and 2 are the two chapters in our Bibles that are talking about before the fall of sin, uh before sin. And so uh it's a great place to look for what God's ideal was at that point. And what we believe as complementarians in this position is that actually, even before sin, you do start to see some differences in a role. So for for people who uh aren't familiar with it and haven't read Genesis 2 in a while, which is totally fine, um, that story begins with God creating Adam. And Adam is there in the garden, and before Eve has been created, um, there's some things that happen with just Adam. God gives Adam the command to work and keep the garden. Um he uh, you know, places him in there. Um, he has the responsibility to name the animals and you know, all that kind of stuff. But what happens pretty quickly in the story is that God looks at Adam alone, and it is one of the most kind of jaw-dropping things in in this creation story. He says, This is not good. It is specifically not good for Adam to be alone. And the reason why that's so remarkable is because sin has not entered the world yet. It's it's fascinating that God is saying something's not good. That's the only thing he says is not good. Correct. Everything is good, good, good, very good. And then suddenly you get this you know, sound reverberates of not good. And specifically, it's not good that that Adam would be alone. And so what God says specifically is I'm going to create a helper for him. That's the English translation uh that we use most commonly. It's the Hebrew word azer. And so what commentarians will point to here is that there is this first distinction of role where the woman is created to fill the role of the helper. Now, we need to stop here. And did we hear a few audible gasps? Well, unfortunately, this has been misused often in this conversation. Uh, because in English, that word helper can easily carry connotations of kind of like a servant or you know, somebody who does menial tasks. Like uh, you know, I don't know, like God created Adam to like do important stuff and Eve is created to do his laundry or whatever, you know. And I, you know, I'm saying that in jest, but that's unfortunately actually not too far away from how some people have interpreted what that helper uh word means. In Hebrew, Azur does not carry any of those uh subservient connotations. And in fact, when you look at how that word azer is used uh throughout the scriptures, it's used more often than anything else to refer to God Himself. God is called our Azer, our helper. And so what is really clear about that is saying that Eve is created to be Adam's Azer, his helper, is not saying that she's of lesser value. It can't mean that if God is our aer as well, right? So this isn't about worth, this isn't about capability. God obviously worth more than us, more capable than us, you know. So it's saying something else. What I believe it is saying here is that Adam was created and given a mission and a purpose. He was given a directive, and what God says is not good is this reality that Adam cannot do what he's supposed to do without the help of the. Help of someone else. The Acer is the one who helps you accomplish what you cannot accomplish on your own.
SPEAKER_01Right. It's not just that he's lonely. I mean, that's the way this passage often gets interpreted and preached. And Adam is with God. He's he's it's not primarily about him being lonely, as you said, it's about completing the task.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so this is it's an equal partnership. It's um, you know, the fact that Eve shares this title with God himself, I think should uh should be pretty significant to us. But what we are pointing out is that there's just there are roles in this relationship. Eve is called the Acer, Adam is not. Uh Eve is the one assisting Adam in doing what he cannot do on his own. It isn't said the opposite way around. And so as we see kind of this beginning creation story start to play out practically as the Bible story goes on, we begin to see this theme, which is that at different times, at different places in the Old Testament, um, God institutes uh certain roles that are of kind of spiritual authority for his people, the highest level of spiritual authority. And time and time again throughout the Bible, uh, God places men in that one specific role of spiritual authority. So, like the first one to point to is probably uh the Levitical priesthood in the Old Testament, right? Um there weren't a lot of restrictions on what women could do necessarily, but there was one, which is that only men of the tribe of Levi could be priests in that context. Um, you know, as that story goes on and God is appointing kings over Israel, it's the same thing. God only appoints male kings over Israel, even though there actually were female rulers in other cultures around. Uh and we turn the page to the New Testament and we see that pattern continue where Jesus appoints 12 men as his disciples who eventually become the 12 apostles of the church as the church begins. And we're gonna start digging into some New Testament passages because in the church context, like the last place where we see that role of spiritual authority and what we've called the spiritual fathers of the church is in the role of elder that we believe is also taught is to be filled by biblically qualified men. So what we're pointing to is not any proof text here necessarily, but a pattern that we see begin before the fall in Genesis 2, play itself out multiple different ways, and ultimately in our day and age today, end up with this role of elder. And so I know we're like skipping almost the entire Bible, uh, but we're we're gonna just jump to the New Testament because a lot of these passages that we're talking about today and and how the church should operate today come from the biblical teaching of how the church should operate in the New Testament. And so uh, yeah, let's let's go there. Let's let's start looking at what the New Testament is telling us about how the church should function.
SPEAKER_01So while you ended there telling us that the Old Testament sets up these unique roles that were set apart for men, the role of king, the role of priest, and then suggested that the New Testament carries that into the role of elders. Where do we see that in the New Testament?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so one of the easy places to go to is 1 Timothy chapter 3, uh verses 1 through 3, where Paul is very specifically giving the qualifications for elders in the church. And uh I think a good place to start here is because for some people I think they think this like one verse kind of settled the entire debate. Um and so let's just I'll just read it here. This is uh Paul speaking in 1 Timothy 3. This saying is trustworthy. If anyone aspires to be an overseer, and uh again, everything's debated in this conversation, but for this context, let's just say overseer and elder are synonyms. Uh if anybody wants to be an overseer or an elder, he desires noble work. An overseer, therefore, must be above reproach the husband of one wife, self-controlled, sensible, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not an excessive drinker, not a bully, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not greedy. So this is a long, uh, challenging list of qualifications for elders. But in the midst of this, you have that one phrase, the husband of one wife. And so for commentarians who are trying to make a biblical case that elder is an office reserved uh for men, which is what we believe. Right. It's easy to point to this one verse and just say, like, what's left to discuss? There it is. Like, why is this why are we even doing a podcast? Like this this shouldn't take an hour. This shouldn't a two-minute podcast. You know, like husband of one wife. Are women husbands of one wife? No. Uh so obviously only men can be in this role. And I want to say a couple of things. One, um, this passage is consistent with our position that the Office of Elders are reserved for biblically qualified men. It's consistent with that. It also should not be anyone's like cornerstone argument for a complementary position here. And if you are wondering why I'm saying that, it's as simple as just continuing to read the rest of the chapter, okay? Because if you read down, Paul goes on from giving qualifications for elders to giving qualifications for deacons. And again, everything's debated, but like what's fairly widely held is the belief that the office of deacon is open to women. And the reason why this fairly widely held is because Paul gives instructions here for deaconesses, for female deacons. And so he envisions women in this role. But interestingly, in the qualifications for deacons, it says husband of one wife as well. And so, why would Paul be giving a husband of one wife qualification for a role that he in that same passage is saying is open to women? And the reason is because the main point of that phrase, husband of one wife, is about faithful, monogamous uh married partners, not mainly the gender of that person. And so, like I said, it's consistent with a male elder position. It's not something you want to hang your entire argument on. It's not a slam dunk. And also, uh, we just need to recognize that the topic of men and women in church leadership roles and how we relate to each other in the church is addressed all over the New Testament. And so let's look at some other places as well that kind of uh support our position on uh on what we're talking about here. And actually, one of them starts just a chapter before in First Timothy chapter two. And we're gonna get in here to a couple passages that seem to be very strictly uh prohibitive? Prohibitive of women doing certain things, fulfilling certain roles in the church. And so if you're listening to this argument and you're uh on the complementarian side of thinking about this, like these are gonna be passages that to you feel like very definitive that women should not be allowed to do certain things in the church. If you're on the more egalitarian side, these are gonna be passages that in some way are probably challenging to you. Uh, these are passages that are challenging to our position as well in certain ways, because they seem to restrict women in more ways than what we're saying women are actually restricted at our church. Um and so let's just dig into it. This is one of the uh the tricky passages in the New Testament about women in the church. Uh this is 1 Timothy chapter 2, starting in verse 11. Steve, do you have that? You want to read it first?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I got it right here. Uh verse 11 says, A woman is to learn quietly with full submission. He goes on to say, I do not allow a woman to teach her to have authority over a man, instead, she is to remain quiet.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it goes on for Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Uh a lot of things going on in this passage, but where this passage gets used most often to kind of defend a fairly strict complementarian position is this idea right here that I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, rather, she is to remain quiet. And so there's a certain complementarian strain of the church that basically just literally applies that verse to any church role or office and says that any position where there's teaching happening uh to a mixed-gendered audience or to men, women can't fulfill that uh that role. And it's teach or have authority. So, like small group leader, Bible study teacher, um, certainly Sunday morning teaching, any of that. Uh just say, like, just read this verse. Um don't permit women to have teaching or authority roles over men. Um so what we're saying is that we actually are complimentarians, but we don't actually think we should be putting those restrictions on women in the church. So, like our position is that women can teach men, can lead men in the church. All we're saying is they can't fulfill the role of elder. Um and I I bet for many people, like they want to know why. I think they might. And that's where one of the things I just think we should acknowledge up top is all these passages have difficulties in interpreting them. Um, you know, all of these passages have cultural aspects involved. We have to figure out not just how to interpret each word in the sentence, but given the cultural context Paul is speaking into, given what's going on in that church at that time, what is this actually addressing? And like, and just for people to kind of get a flavor for that, you know, this passage says in verse 12 that women are to remain quiet. It's not just that they can't teach or have authority over a man. The the you know, positive thing given here is stay quiet. And Steve, you've been to a lot of churches. Uh you you've been to complementarian churches, egalitarian churches. Have you ever been in a church that actually plays that out literally? Not one. I mean, that's just the reality is that all of us are trying to make sense of some things that are difficult to make sense of. And very, very few churches take this literally to the end and say, like, women, feel free to talk in the parking lot, but as soon as you get into the church gathering, you better stop talking. And I'm not saying like because nobody believes this, we should all just let ourselves off the hook. What I'm saying is there's actually really good reasons not to interpret it that way. When you understand the context, when you understand what's going on uh in Paul's mind here.
SPEAKER_01Well, can I jump in on that one why? Because there's a phrase that keeps jumping into my head. When whenever we have as Christians discussions, debates, whatever you want to call them about issues like this, sometimes you'll hear people refer to them as intramural debates. I don't know about you, I played some intramural sports in college, and like the number one thing about intramurals is they're the most uninteresting, meaningless sports that will ever be witnessed. And this is not meaningless. This is really important. And I think everyone might agree with us on that. But what I just want to really emphasize here is you and I are coming at this in good faith. Like we have prayed, we have studied, we're very humble, as we've already said, towards those who hold a different position. But we really are doing our best to read this and understand it as carefully as we can. So I think what I'm just making is a plea for genuine good faith from those who might disagree with us as we're interpreting through this.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate you saying that. Because I think the other piece of what that that's saying is um if I actually thought the New Testament taught that women shouldn't speak in church, I I would actually say that that's what we should do. I like I actually submit to what the Bible says from a place of integrity, right? I would try as hard as you know. Um I don't think that's what this passage is actually saying. And here's here's why, you know, um you asked the question Does Paul believe that women should not speak in the church gathering? Well, you could look at this verse and you could say, yes, that he apparently thinks that women are to remain quiet, except that if you've read the whole letter, uh you would notice that that doesn't actually seem to be what Paul thinks. Just a few chapters earlier in 1 Corinthians 11, Paul gave uh instructions for how women are to pray and prophesy in the church gathering. And so however we sort this out, I think we can acknowledge that it's difficult for women both to be silent and to be prophesying in the church gathering. He does believe in women having a public vocal role in the church gathering.
SPEAKER_01Well, he also, jumping back to 1 Corinthians, as you just did in 1 Corinthians 14, says, when you gather, each of you should come with a word, with a psalm, with a hymn, with a prophecy. And so, yeah, clearly women prophesied, they were invited to speak. So it can't just mean blunt silence.
SPEAKER_00So, yeah, so just telling women to stay quiet isn't on the table. That's not what Paul means here. And then I would push back against what I've heard some people do with this passage, also, which is essentially from a more egalitarian side of things, saying, like, yeah, that's weird. Uh, and clearly this is some cultural thing that we'll never be able to understand. And so let's just like let's just move on. Let's just like not think about uh what verse 72 is saying. Because what I would say is it also is clear that Paul is prohibiting something. Uh he he is saying that he does not permit a woman to do something here, and that something he says is exercise uh to teach or exercise authority over a woman. And so what is possibly going on here? What is Paul actually intending to prohibit? Uh, one thing I think it's really important for us in our modern world to remember is that when we imagine what it means to be a part of a church and to go to church, uh, and what uh Paul and the church context he was speaking into had in their mind of what going to church or being a part of a church meant are very different things. So, you know, we imagine big rooms and microphones and speakers and, you know, TVs on the stage and uh a lot of people facing one direction and one person facing another direction and you know, all that kind of stuff. Uh that's not what church looked like uh 2,000 years ago. Uh, you know, these gatherings usually were in homes. Right. Um I would imagine that they were not in um auditorium-style seating, you know, they're probably gathered in a circle of some kind and and crammed into a tight space. Um, they also probably did not have large church staffs like we have with professionals who are paid to give the message every week. And so you had a lot of people teaching, a lot of people sharing words uh in these church gatherings. And part of how that worked um was that after somebody gave a teaching, it was the role of the elder, of this of the spiritual church fathers, to evaluate. And if something was said that was incorrect, to correct it. And uh if something, if it was a good teaching to affirm it and to say that this was worth listening to and should be uh heeded. And I think Paul has that environment in mind in what he's speaking to here. He's speaking to this reality that there's gonna be teaching going on, there's gonna be responses to it, it's gonna happen live in the room. You know, if if people I you know, I teach often at our church, it's not socially okay for people to stand up in the congregation and start like having a conversation with me about what I'm saying. That actually was somewhat allowed uh in this other church context in the smaller environment. And so what Paul's saying here is first, let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. So the first thing he's concerned about is do not keep women out of that environment. When someone is coming to teach, let women along with the men come and learn. That's that's actually the first thing that he says.
SPEAKER_01And that was culturally novel.
SPEAKER_00Correct. There are people who would have thought like the women should just be out with the children. Greek culture, yeah. Let the men learn. Paul is saying, no, let the women be in there. But when it comes to that responsibility that the elders have to give the authoritative word on what was just said, the women should not speak in that environment. And you can think of a couple of different reasons why that would be said. Um, one is just that it's the job of the church fathers to give the definitive word for the church gathering of what is being believed and what's not. Secondly, it would have been incredibly uh culturally problematic for a woman to be publicly correcting a man not in her family in an environment like that. It would have caused uh uh a lot of problems socially in that time. But for whatever reason, Paul is saying there um, there's a time when only the elders should be doing this. And because elders are men, I do not permit a woman to uh to fulfill that role. So that's what how we take this passage, and that's why, even though you can read the the literal words here that she's remaining quiet, we don't interpret that broadly to every situation. We say, okay, if there was a specific role and function that the elders were performing in that congregation, what does that role and function look like for our church today? And only elders should be doing that for us today. And so when we think about that definitive word of what's taught, um at our church, only the elders can determine official Alderwood positions on things. This is what our church believes, this is what we say is right, this is what we say is wrong. Um, no one else gets to do that. That is reserved for the elders, and at Alderwood, that's why we say that uh that role of elder is reserved to biblically qualified men.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, let me add a couple of thoughts there. Why I know we're gonna jump back to 1 Corinthians here, but just to kind of bolster and support what you were just saying, we know culturally that most of these early churches were modeled after the synagogue. And in the synagogue, that's how they operated. One or two or three people would speak, and then the elders would weigh in. In 1 Corinthians 14, 29, it says two or three prophets should speak, and then the others will evaluate. That model seems to have still held. So when he talks about women speaking with authority or have authority, a lot of people interpret that as speaking authoritatively. It's one phrase. And the idea is that they wouldn't have the final authority. The elders, just as is the same with any man. Any man who spoke up was also subject to the elders. I think that's important to recognize. And then to your point about churches being different, one other thing they didn't have besides microphones and pews and everything you just mentioned, is a copy of the Bible. The Bible. Yeah. They they had the Old Testament scriptures, but what we hold and cherish in the New Testament, they didn't have. And I don't want to get too far out here in some of the interpretive stuff, but you know, one of the interpretations that has been very helpful to me is I do believe the New Testament holds open to non-elders the ability to exhort, which is a common New Testament verb used in explaining and encouraging people in the scriptures. It's different than speaking authoritatively. The word teach is usually associated in the New Testament with the passing on of the oral teachings of Jesus. That's what the elders protected. So as we move into our position, I think that's a helpful insight that men and women are allowed to exhort one another from a pulpit or otherwise. Was there pulpits in those churches? I don't think there was pulpits. I don't think there was pulpits.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And no microphones attached to your face to help you explain.
SPEAKER_01And also no YouTube that you had to deny later on. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. Okay, so that's how we take that passage. Um people who are familiar with some of these uh direct passages might know that there's another first Corinthians passage uh that is is looked to here that is actually more restrictive uh than the one we just read. Very challenging. The let's look to 1 Corinthians chapter 14, and we're gonna look at verses 33 to 35. And do you have that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've got it here. Why don't you read that one for us? It starts out with sod since God is not a God of disorder but of peace in all the churches of the saints, the women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but are to submit themselves, as the law also says. If they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home, since it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
SPEAKER_00Okay. So we just got done saying that Paul didn't think that women should stay silent in the churches, and then here's this Bible passage right there, where it seems to be clearly saying that Paul thinks that women should not speak in the church. Uh so, you know, what gives here? Um, you know, once again, I I just want to say this is a passage that's challenging for basically everyone's position on this issue, not just ours, not just certain complementarian churches, not just certain egalitarian churches. Um, you know, there's basically no one who is applying this literally. And again, I think for good reason, uh Paul's already established that women should be speaking in church gatherings, prophesying, praying, all of that.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I don't want to be redundant. I mentioned this earlier, but let me read the scripture because I want to be careful that everyone understands that, and it is right here in that very context, 1 Corinthians 14, 26. He says, What then, brothers and sisters, whenever you come together, each one has a hymn, a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. And that's not restrictive to gender. So clearly everyone's being invited to add even words of instruction in that setting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So there is some inconsistency here that needs to be resolved. Correct. By understanding the context, by understanding, you know, what's going on in that church that isn't clear immediately in just what's written here. Um and really. I think there's two possibilities of what could possibly be going on here. One is that it's really the same thing we just said about the previous Corinthians passage that Paul is prohibiting this teaching with authority kind of speech that is the role of the elders only. I actually don't think that's the answer. I it's possible, uh, but what I actually think is true is that Paul is using uh a way of speaking in this passage that he's used several times already in the letter of Corinthians, where he's actually quoting something he doesn't believe and then refutes it. So this is this is gonna sound more controversial than it actually is. It's gonna sound like I'm just picking a verse I don't like and saying Paul didn't really mean it. Uh but the reality is that at multiple points here, Paul has referenced something that was written to him in a previous letter, something that they said to him, and he's said what they said, and then he's responded by disagreeing. So, like a an easy kind of example of where to go with that is um earlier in this letter in First Corinthians uh chapter eight, I believe, um he quotes this idea, this phrase um that food is for the stomach and stomach is for food, and God will destroy them both. It's this Corinthian phrase that essentially means like your body doesn't really matter, right? What you do with it doesn't really matter. It's like this whole world's gonna burn, so like do whatever you want. And and Paul goes on to say, but actually the body was made for the Lord, and it matters what you do with your body, like avoid sexual immorality, all that kind of stuff. So there's this phrase that there's the only way to understand that Paul's not actually teaching that is just understanding the context of what he's responding to. Um, he doesn't say, you know, you said this and I say this. He just these statements are just next to each other. They didn't have quotation marks in. Yeah, it's like your English Bibles today will give you some helpful quotation marks to show you Paul's not actually saying this. Yes. Uh, but it's just an interpretive thing that you have to figure out based on context. And I think something similar is going on in 1 Corinthians 14 here. I think this concept that women should keep silent in the churches, uh, they're not permitted to speak, they should only be in submission. If they want to learn, let them learn at home. Like one, he just said, let them learn in the gathering just earlier. He was advocating for that. A few verses earlier. Yeah. So I think that is something that was a position that was being put forth by the Corinthians. And he's reminding them of what they said, and then he's going on to refute it. And what's interesting is you know, we just finished in verse 35. Um, you he get he, you know, he says this phrase of they need to stay silent, let them learn at home, whatever. His response is Did the word of God originate from you or did it come to you only? I think he's rebuking the men there. Like you think this is only for males? You're the position that you just put forward is actually not accurate to what God is speaking. So I actually think Paul's refuting the position in in Corinthians 14, not putting it forward as what he actually believes. And that's why we don't uh use those two verses to inform our policies about how women lead and teach in the church, is because I don't actually think it's the teaching of Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 4, uh, verses 33 and 35.
SPEAKER_01And just to underscore what you said earlier, there's so much more we could say on this. And we really are inviting a conversation. We're not trying to act as though we've, you know, delivered the last word here. We're still stretching and growing, but we really want to invite the conversation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We put a couple passages forward that uh complementarians often point to as kind of the definitive biblical texts for why women shouldn't be allowed to teach or lead in the church. Um, let's go to the other side for a second and look at a couple passages uh that egalitarians often point to is why it's it would be it's wrong to prohibit roles uh of any kind from women. And I think probably the most classic is Galatians chapter three, yes, um verses 28 and 29. And that just simply says there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, uh, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise. And uh I I have a smile on my face because I think just like we said earlier with the first Timothy three, where like people just read like husband of one wife, what's wrong with you? This is one of the ones that people do that uh in this conversation too, where it's like, did you not read Galatians? There is no female in male. Like, why would you ever make any distinction based on male and feel like just read your Bible and get this one right? And again, I think we would say it's not quite that simple.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, can the missions pastor chime in on this one? Because one of the things I think about as I read that is, you know, we know the end of the story. And the end of the story is found in the book of Revelation, and multiple places in Revelation we're told the beautiful end of the story is people from every tribe, tongue, and nation will fall and worship at the Son of God. And so clearly God is not eradicating or dismissing our cultural differences. And I think he's not eradicating our gender differences. The context for the book of Galatians is people were saying other people were inferior. If you are a Greek, you're inferior because you're not circumcised. If you're a woman, you're inferior to a man, so you can't inherit salvation the same way. That's the actual context of the book.
SPEAKER_00That's the context of the book, and then the immediate context of that passage is Paul saying that Jesus has torn down the dividing wall of hostility. It's about division and enmity between people groups. And he's listing here three examples of people groups that have had a very high amount of enmity between them. Men and women is one of them. Class status is one, so free and slave is one he puts here, and then ethnicity, Jew and Greek. And he's saying, like, these dividing walls that have kept people apart from each other in the kingdom are torn down. We are gonna worship together, we're gonna be one family together. Uh, the point of that Galatians passage is not to say there are no longer any distinctions of any kind, is to say we don't separate ourselves from each other, we don't create enemies out of one another based on these differences that at at some points behind us have actually given us reason to hate and to create enemies and all of that. Um, so I mean, we would totally affirm what I believe that passage is is saying. Um it's such a beautiful truth, right?
SPEAKER_01And it is the truth that's behind everything we're talking about here. That, you know, we didn't talk about Genesis three, but Genesis three points to the enmity between man and woman that has existed since the fall, among other forms of entity that you just talked about, enmity, I mean. And Jesus tears that down. Jesus is giving us new life, he's undoing everything that is bad and sad in the world. And the gender differences and enmity is something that desperately needs to be undone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And whether you are uh a complementarian or an egalitarian, wherever you come from on this, I hope that's something we can kind of rally around, is that uh the relationships between men and women have been deeply marred by sin. There's been oppression, there's been sexism, there's been resentment, all of that. And all of us are called as followers of Jesus to uh to turn that around, to repent ourselves, to advocate, to uh to follow Jesus in the kingdom of God by living in a way that shows how God actually wanted it to be and how he wants it to be in the future, not how it has been just historically. Uh so I think that's what Galatians 3 is getting at. Um and Steve, I let's just stop here. There are so many more passages we could go to. There's so I'm sure there's passages on people's tongues right now. Like, why are you talking about, you know, uh go to go to Ephesians 5. Uh all that. Um we'll take a pause. We do actually uncover a few, or we get into more passages in the paper if people want to go there. Um, but let's stop, we'll take a break. When we come back, uh, let's start talking about maybe a couple really practical applications of our position and what it means for church life.
SPEAKER_01Why we've looked at a lot of scriptures here. Like you said, there's so much more we could cover, but I think the question a lot of people are asking right now is so where are you guys landing this plane? What is the real substance of Alderwood's policy on women in church leadership?
SPEAKER_00Well, and I think what people mean by substance, it's like, okay, we hear what you're saying theologically, but like what does it mean practically? Right. Right. And I think there's kind of two questions that r really come up here. We we've addressed obviously just the role of elder, but beyond that, um, what are we saying this means for women using teaching gifts in the church? And what are we saying about how we use titles in the church as well? So let's let's handle those together. Um, as a reminder, because of our position about um really the only prohibition being about the role of elder, when we're talking about what women should be allowed, and if allowed, encouraged to do in the church, the question isn't actually what can women do? The question is what can non-elders do? And so to be consistent, what we believe is that if we're allowing non-elder men to serve in a certain way in the church, in general, we should also allow non-elder women to serve in that position. And in in our uh case, all women are non-elder women. But if someone who's not an elder who's a man is doing something, a woman should be able to do that as well. Um, so I want to acknowledge first, there's a lot of different ways to do church. Uh, there's a lot of different ways to decide who's teaching and in what capacity. And so this principle might play out differently in different church contexts. And I actually think uh that's by design. I we don't get a lot of specific instruction on how exactly church gatherings should look or feel or what titles people have or whatever. God gives a lot of freedom in how to structure church. At our church, at Alderwood, um, every elder, part of the qualifications is that they're able to teach, but we don't restrict teaching to elders. We have non-elders teach in almost every environment, actually, in every environment, including Sunday morning gatherings. Uh, we have a teaching team. It's made up of currently a multitude of pastors and myself. I am the only one who's an elder on the teaching team. Every message that's not given by me is given by a non-elder. And so, what this position is saying is that actually, to be consistent, we believe that women should be able to teach in those capacities as well. That if we're allowing non-elders to teach, uh, there is no reason to preclude a woman from doing that because uh men and women are each gifted of the spirit. Women can have teaching gifts just like men can have. We want women to be able to use those gifts to edify and bless the church. So um that would that same logic applies to like questions of small group leaders, of you know, teaching Bible studies, of uh leading a discussion group. Yep, all of that. Um at Alderwood, we allow non-elders to do all those things, and that would include women as well. Um that is one uh application that people care a lot about. The other's titles. Uh and titles are an interesting thing in church. Churches use different titles for all kinds of things, different denominations use different use titles differently. You know, you've got ministers, you've got pastors, you've got uh people of the cloth, you've got uh bishops and reverse. And reverends, and I mean just popes and all, you know, all kinds of things. Um but in our little corner of the kingdom here in the Protestant world, pastor is one of the most common tiles that are that it's used. And so one of the big questions for our position is just okay, uh, can women be pastors? And I'm actually gonna say the exact thing, the exact thing that I just said earlier, which is um there's a lot of different ways to do church. There's a lot of different ways to use titles, okay? And um there are many churches, many denominations where a pastor is actually just a synonym of elder. Okay, so there's there's kind of three titles used in the New Testament to refer to church leadership positions, and those are elder, which we talked a lot about, overseer, which we reference in a in a passage, and and we're making the case is a synonym for elder and pastor. Okay. And many people believe that actually all three of those terms are synonyms. They're one in the same. And if your church believes that, if you structure things so that um your pastors are elders, your elders are pastors, if you have something called an overseer, they're elders and pastors, like they're all the same, then from our position, I would advise you not to have female pastors because we believe that elders are supposed to be bigly qualified men. If pastors are elders, then women shouldn't be pastors either. At Alderwood, we actually don't operate that way. We have two different offices. Uh we have the office of elder and the office of pastor. They are not overlapping. They're only overlapping in one position, which is mine, the lead pastor. Our lead pastor is both a pastor and an elder. But every other person we give the title of pastor to at Alderwood is not an elder. And so, if we ask that question, like, is a non-elder allowed to do something at Alderwood? Non-elders are allowed to fill pastor roles. And so we believe that in our context, what that means is that women should be able to have the title of pastor as well. Because at Alderwood, pastor doesn't mean elder. It means something like uh someone who in professional ministry uses spiritual gifts to shepherd and lead people. And we believe women can shepherd and lead people, we believe men can do that. Uh, and so the title of pastor would be open to women because of this position.
SPEAKER_01And if I'm not mistaken, the term pastor is not used often in the New Testament.
SPEAKER_00So let's go there. Because I think for some people, if you've just been soaked in a way of reading the scriptures where you're like, the Bible just says women should not be pastors, and you're saying, like, why are we not doing what the Bible says? Well, let's look at that together for a second, because not you just very graciously said, you know, it doesn't mention all that often. Once the the title of pastor in reference to a church position is used one time in the entire Bible. Okay. So the the word in Greek is poimin, and it literally means shepherd. Pastor and shepherd are the same thing. Um, and so it's used uh other places to refer literally to shepherds, but when it refers to a church office, it's only used one time in Ephesians chapter four, verse 11. There's a there's a list of gifts that God gives to the church. Um, you know, the evangelists, the prophets, the priests, the pastors, uh not priests, sorry, the the uh evangelists, the pastors, the teachers. That poyman word right there is that only time in the entire Bible that the title of pastor is used to refer to a church office. And interestingly, um, nothing is said about that role. It's listed there. There's no job description, there's no list of qualifications, there's no verse that says, oh, and by the way, pastors are the same thing as elders, pastors. It's inferred by a lot of people. By many people, they infer it. And the reason they infer it is because when you read the descriptions of what elders are called to do, elders are called to pastor the verb, they are called to shepherd people. And there's this, in my opinion, significant interpretive leap made, which is that because all elders are called to pastor, therefore all pastors are elders. And that is just a logical fallacy that that doesn't actually mean that. And so what we're saying is not that people who use the title pastor and elder interchangeably are wrong, or we're saying they should stop doing that or anything like that. All we're saying is the Bible does not specifically teach that these rules are interchangeable. And because of that, there is biblical freedom to use these titles in in a multitude of ways. And here at Alderwood, we use the title to refer to non-elders who are just using their gifts to shepherd and lead people. We've had women doing that work for a long, long time and will continue to. And what we're saying is that actually our position means that there's nothing wrong or against the scriptures from giving women that title as well.
SPEAKER_01And what is interesting about that passage in Ephesians 4 that you listed, where it speaks of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, is that it's kind of a unique passage in that the context is Christ giving gifts to the church to build up the church. So some people use the term offices, and I think that's appropriate, but it's also clear that those offices and those roles are gifts. Some people would look at that list and say, well, clearly apostles are all men. Clearly, well, it kind of might break down at that point. There are plenty of female prophets in the New Testament and some in the old. So again, I don't want to get too deep into the interpretive side of it, but I want to underscore what you're saying as it's not a slam dunk.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Um Steve, we've covered a lot of ground. And uh we've probably uh caused more questions than we've answered, and that's okay. This is a huge topic and one that is deserving of a lot of time and energy, a lot of going back to these passages, a lot of reading people's perspectives. I hope this is the beginning of many people's journey on this, not the end. Um and so I just want to kind of circle back to where we started, which is if your head is spinning, if if you're angry right now, if you have questions, if you're confused, whatever, please reach out to us, let us engage with you on this. Um But for today, I think we'll we'll leave it here as far as explaining ourselves. And let's just close by pointing back to kind of our heart for how men and women uh thrive and lead together and partner in our church.
SPEAKER_01And this is Can I have the privilege of closing these out? Yes, please. Honestly, why it's a real honor because you and I went through a long, prayerful, arduous process with our elders to arrive where we've arrived, humbly, as best as we can. And to really put a fine point on it, we have these three affirmations that really sum up what I think is what you just said is the heart of what we're trying to say and what we believe. The first is that we strive to encourage women to grow as disciples of Jesus. In a nutshell, why does that mean?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that means we are not gonna give preference to men as being the ones who it really matters that they learn the scriptures, that they really grow and like women can come along if they want to. But when Jesus calls us to follow him, he is calling us in that Genesis 1 sense, men and women created in the image of God, equal partners. And we want to see women thrive and grow at our church every bit as much as we want to see men thrive and grow at our church.
SPEAKER_01And I know both of us would say we have grown as disciples tremendously under the leadership and gifting of women. Absolutely. Secondly, we seek to equip women to use their gifts in church ministry of all kinds. What would you say to that one?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I think that is for me kind of the being passion behind why it's worth going out on a limb a little bit here and why it's worth ruffling some feathers to allow women into some places that they haven't been allowed, is because it's it's not um a safe choice to kind of err on a more conservative side and say, let's just not have women do this. That's not safe. What that's doing is restricting women from using their God-given gifts empowered by the Holy Spirit to bless the church and their families, to grow themselves. Like whatever God allows, we need to allow. Whatever God has gifted women to do, we need to encourage and equip women to do. And so that's our passion. That's our commitment, is we're going to, the best of our ability, uh, create spaces at Alderwood for women to use their gifts to bless the church.
SPEAKER_01And I think you just really summed up the last point so well. We commit to empowering women and removing hindrances to not get in their way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that's our hope. We're certainly not perfect at that and have a lot of ways to grow, um, certainly more things to change. But that's our heart. That's what we want to see. And we want to do all of that while remaining absolutely faithful to the scriptures and what the scriptures teach. And uh yeah, I'm excited for uh hopefully many, many more years lead to us all that way.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, Wyatt. It's been a fun process and worth it. Yeah, thanks, Steve. Appreciate it, man. Thanks for joining us on this episode of Native Exiles. As we wrapped up our series on our position papers, looking specifically at the topic of women in church leadership. I don't think Wyatt or I have ever put in more work, blood, sweat, tears, prayer than this one because it matters a lot. We hope it will be encouraging to you. We hope it has been a help to you. We look forward to and anticipate conversations with many of you and we also look forward to seeing you again next time on native exiles